NAME:
Leon Degrelle
NATION:
Belgium
DATE
(S) OF INTERVIEW: March 1984, April 1993 (Telephonic)
PLACE
OF INTERVIEW: Barcelona, Spain
LANGUAGE
(S) CONDUCTED: English, German, French
SIGNIFICANCE
OF SUBJECT: Leader of the Belgian Socialist
Rexist
Movement; German volunteer, Waffen
SS General and 28th Waffen SS Division Commander.
OTHERS
IN ATTENDANCE: Michele Ulovey
FORMAT:
Q & A standard.
Q:
When and where were
you born?
A:
I was born in
Bouillon, Luxembourg on 15 June 1906.
Q:
What was your
family like?
A:
My father was a
brewer, a good Catholic man, and my mother was the most wonderful woman in the
world.
Q:
What was your
education like?
A:
My family had been
Jesuit educated for many generations, and I went to the College of Notre Dame
de la Paix. I studied the classics and theology, but was seriously drawn to
politics. The Jesuits taught us to expand our mind and pursue knowledge, which
I did. Unfortunately some of my fellow countrymen took a dim view of my
independent writing and publishing on certain political thoughts. I had a tough
time.
Q:
You were arrested,
were you not?
A:
Yes, I was arrested
in 1940 by French troops, beaten, and moved around from damp jail cells where I
was tortured until finally freed by German troops. They knew who I was since I
was a leader of the Rexist Party, which was a Socialist anti-Communist political
party. Seeing that I would not receive any help, let alone justice from the
authorities in Belgium I knew that that government was illegitimate, and I
decided that the corruption must be challenged.
Q:
How did you join
the German army?
A:
My brother had been
murdered, my parents and wife killed after torture, and my eight children were
taken away and scattered to the winds, a situation that would not be resolved
for many years. I basically had some additional political problems, and until
the Germans invaded and captured the country I was not safe. I felt that
Belgium would only be a great and sovereign nation again once Germany won the
war and eliminated the dangers of Communism. I formed the first group of
volunteers from the Flemish and Walloons, and we were formed in our own
battalion. Later we were assigned to the training centres, and then deployed to
Army Group Center at first. Many of our men were sent to the Demyansk region as
support in late 1941 to early 1942, but were then recalled and joined 5th SS
‘Wiking’ in the Ukraine later. We later became our own independent Waffen SS
unit, the 28th der Waffen SS-Panzergrenadier Division ‘Wallonien’ in April 1944
at a ceremony in Brussels. ‘Sepp’ Dietrich, Max Wünsche and other notables were
there for the induction ceremony. We started with 400 men in 1940, later
growing to about 15,000, but only about 400 would be around after the war,
including myself and two other original members. Of the original 6,000 men in
the regiment before becoming a division 2,500 were killed. We had a great
combat record, and Hitler personally congratulated me and gave me the Oak
Leaves. I believe that we had the greatest number of Knight’s Crosses of any
foreign unit, but I am not sure.
Q:
What was it like
for you, fighting on the Russian Front?
A:
Well, that was
where the real war was. The greatest threat was from Communist Russia and the
Western Allies discovered this only too late; we live in the world created by
this today. As far as Russia, it must be the weather, especially the bitter
winters, and the endless steppe that goes forever. We were not prepared for
this environment. The Russians were used to it and were well clothed to resist
the cold. The greatest assets we had were the opportunity to strip Russian dead
and take their padded clothing and felt boots, as well as those marvelous fur
hats. They were very adapted to ski warfare, which we also used, and were
perhaps even better at since we were Edelweiss trained as well. The partisan
war was the worst, we had to adapt immediately to very situation, and the
situation always changed. This was especially bad since they did not wear
uniforms and could blend into any village. A typical day was when we moved all
night on foot, sometimes with trucks and always looking for the next ambush.
The Soviets sent artillery in to try and channel us into their killing zones,
but we hit the earth and pushed through, taking casualties every time. The
largest partisan fighting I was involved in was near the road at Cherkassy,
where the partisan cavalry attacked and withdrew quickly. I ordered my men not
to pursue, as it was not our mission. When we linked up with members of 4th
Army we felt safer. But that was just the beginning.
Q:
You wrote about
Soviet atrocities in you your book, Campaign in Russia. Would you describe some
of the things you witnessed during the war on both sides?
A:
The partisans were
usually the worst group to be captured by; they gouged out eyes, cut off
fingers, genitalia, toes, and would butcher a man in front of his comrades
before beginning their field interrogation. This was confirmed from both
soldiers who escaped captivity and defecting partisans who were sickened by the
sight and later joined the anti-Stalinist cause. One even had photographs that
were turned over to the intelligence section of 2nd SS Panzer Army. I saw them.
I saw a young German soldier, part of a reconnaissance patrol that had
disappeared who had his legs crudely amputated at the knees with a saw or
knife. We could see that even dying after this procedure he had managed to
crawl several meters with his fingers. Another SS man had been crucified alive
and his genitals removed and stuffed in his mouth. Several times we witnessed
the Soviets and partisans retreating after a battle, stopping long enough to
kill our wounded, usually by smashing their heads with their weapons or using a
bayonet, shovel, ax handle, or knife. This did nothing to engender a more
humane attitude towards the partisans when captured.
Q:
What was the
atmosphere like fighting next to the other European volunteers?
A:
Well, the Russians
hated the Italians certainly, I think even more than they hated the Germans,
which I wrote about. I remember Italians being killed and tortured in horrible
ways. Once a group of prisoners was stripped of their clothes and dowsed in ice
water and were allowed to freeze to death. This was during the winter, and they
died frozen alive. They even killed doctors and the chaplain. We discovered
these events after recapturing a couple of villages. It was absolutely
horrible.
Q:
How were the
peasants’ attitudes towards your unit and the Germans?
A:
The peasants were
just simple people who had suffered under Stalin and the great promises of
Communism, and they were, for the most part very supportive of us. This was
most evident when we attended their religious services. I attended regularly
whenever possible, although I am a Catholic, the Russian Orthodox services were
handled by priests who had either been in prison, sent to Siberia, or living in
hiding for many years. We supported their religious freedom and they responded
very well. It was very moving to see parents bring their young children for
Baptisms and Christenings, and the old people holding their icons and
crucifixes. They prayed for an end to Stalin and his measures, they also prayed
for us to win. Another thing that must be remembered is that we also assisted
the peasants in bringing in their crops, protected them from partisan reprisals
and gave them jobs. They lived a better life under us for three years than
under the Communists during their entire lives. They also gave us great
intelligence on partisan and Red Army activity, and worked as translators and
scouts. This was especially true in the Ukraine, although sometimes the Germans
in charge would do stupid things and destroy the support we had gained. One
village I remember was called Baibusy; we had a great relationship with these
Ukrainians and others who fled there. They were marvelous. In the Caucasus the
anti-Soviet feeling was incredible, especially among the Kalmucks and
Armenians, and they fought with us and for us in a fanatical way. Another great
memory was an entire village turning out to welcome us as we entered. The
people brought out their religious icons and gave us information and valuable
intelligence, food, places to stay, everything. The orders from the upper
command were to treat the locals humanely; they were our allies. These people
became a second family for many of us, and when we left there was a great deal
of sadness. Once Paul Hausser and I attended a religious mass; the people knelt
before him as if he were a Patriarch, blessing him for his presence and for
restoring their religious freedom. With the candles and gilt images it was
quite an impressive scene.
Q:
You fought the
partisans; what was this type of warfare like?
A:
Well, it was the
worst. First, there were many different types of partisans. There were the
Communist fanatics who were the most dangerous and could not be bargained with.
Then there were the peasants, conscripts who had little choice in the matter,
and then there were the former Red Army men who joined the partisans due to
their units having been cut off and destroyed, although many of the last two
groups defected to us at some point. They moved quickly in their pig skin
sandals as light infantry and in small groups, usually at night, using hit and
run tactics and creating turmoil in general. They placed mines in roads, killed
sentries, kidnapped officials and forcibly conscripted recruits, and they were
very difficult to catch. In the Caucasus the terrain was a jungle, very thick
with valleys and great forests where we had a very difficult time against the
partisans; snipers climbed trees in the very dense forests, they had bunker
complexes, underground hospitals, weapons manufacturing centres, everything.
They had dug live graves; holes in the ground where they shared body heat and
were well camouflaged. They lived like animals and fought the same way. Many
were freed criminals, even murderers who were brought from jails and placed
into units. Their snipers were very deadly and were difficult to locate, let
alone capture or kill. This type of fighting was the worst; it wore on the
nerves of the men and reduced humanity to the lowest level. I would rather face
the Red Army than these people. The one thing my men and I knew was that
however large and present the threat presented by the Red Army, the partisans
were the worst enemy to fight. Since they did not wear uniforms, unless they
were in German clothing sometimes, and they blended well with the local
population, which created a problem in choosing who was and was not a partisan.
Unless you caught one with a weapon or were actively engaged against them it
was impossible. Later during the war they were absorbed into Red Army infantry
and tank units, and sometimes they were given uniforms. I would say the most
disturbing aspect of fighting the partisans was that, unlike the Soviet
military, the partisans adhered to no set doctrine, used no set order of battle
that we could study, and basically struck where it was the most opportune. If
we caught and cornered them they were dead, and they knew it. That was why they
fought like fanatics.
Q:
What was your
impression of the Red Army?
A:
Very undisciplined
and suicidal in their tactics, but very determined in the fight. They had men
and women of all ages and racial backgrounds, teenagers to pensioners, it was
incredible. I once saw a boy no older than nine years old who had been killed
in action, and it made me hate the Communists even more for their disregard for
human life. It was also difficult for our men (Walloons) to shoot women and
children; we were not accustomed to this, but it became necessary since they
fought just as hard as the men.
Q:
What were the
prisoners you captured like?
A:
Most Russians only
wanted to surrender; these were usually peasants who had been caught up in the
war and were hoping for something better. Many carried the safe conduct passes
distributed along the front, guaranteeing safe passage to anyone surrendering.
Thousands deserted carrying these passes.
Q:
You mentioned the
wearing on the nerves of the men. What was the typical condition of the men?
A:
We had a few
suicides and some went mad. It was a type of war that cannot be described, it
must be experienced, but once experienced it still cannot be described. Does
this make sense? I know it seems vague, but that is the best I can do. The
exhaustion, hunger, fear, and pain, not to mention the cold of the winter all
played their part. Seeing the brutality only made the situation worse. The men
were walking ghosts; skeletons that had not eaten a hot meal in weeks, or even
a solid meal unless we came across a dead horse or a village that offered us
assistance. The orders were that no one would steal or commit any crime against
the people. We needed their support, and anything that reduced that support
would return to haunt us ten fold. Unfortunately, many German units did not
observe this reality. We served with the 5th SS ‘Wiking’ Division during this
period [1943], and they generally observed the rules. However, there were
exceptions.
Q:
How did the
authorities handle desertions?
A:
Those who were
caught, and bear in mind that nearly everyone deserting was caught, were
hanged, shot, or executed in some fashion and displayed for public viewing.
Many were just children who had been sent into a war that was too much for
them. They broke and they were killed by their own men for it. It was better to
stay and face the enemy with the chance of surviving, than to desert and
definitely be caught by the German Field Police, who were a judge and jury of
their own. It was very sad.
Q:
Did you ever work
with the Freiwilligen?
A:
Yes, many times,
and it was both a success and a failure. There were some former Communists who
re-defected to the Soviets, but I think most stayed and fought until the end.
They knew what their fate was if captured by the Communists, and many were
anti-Communists who were loyal to us. The best volunteers were generally the
Western European units, such as our own Walloons, the French ‘Charlemagne’, and
the Dutch and Norwegian units. The ‘Wiking’ was perhaps the most notable and we
served with them. They were perhaps the best of all, and were actually the only
foreign unit to be designated as an actual SS division, not an auxiliary unit,
and they were also made a full panzer division as well.
Q:
Were you ever
exposed to Soviet propaganda?
A:
Yes, quite often.
The Reds knew who were and they would broadcast in French to us, asking us to
come over and fight for De Gaulle. This did not work of course. We actually
found it quite amusing.
Q:
Tell us about your
meetings with the Nazi elite, such as Hitler and Himmler, and what you thought
of them.
A:
I met Himmler only
four times during the war, if my memory is correct, and Hitler I met several
times, besides the Knight’s Cross and Oak Leaves awards. I once had a meeting
with both of them at one time, when I made a request in 1943 that my men be
allowed to have Catholic chaplains, and they agreed. I also refused to have my
men partake in anything that we deemed un-soldierly, and Paul Hausser, ‘Sepp’
Dietrich and others supported me. Hitler once told me that if he had ever had a
son, he wished that he would have been like me. I am not exactly sure why he
said this, but I know he respected me, and I think Himmler did as well,
although I never trusted him, and I was not quite comfortable with him as the
supreme commander of the SS, including the Waffen SS, which we had joined. I
believed that Germany could have won the war even after the Americans came into
it if the mass of the eastern peoples had been rallied to our cause.
Q:
Hitler decorated
you with the Knight’s Cross personally, didn’t he?
A:
Yes, in February
1944, following the Cherkassy battle, which was quite rare. I think only
perhaps twenty men received the Knight’s Cross from Hitler personally, and
twelve of those were for the Eban Emael operation in 1940. I received my
Knight’s Cross at the same ceremony where General Herbert Gille received the
Oak Leaves, as both of us were at Cherkassy together, and General Herman
Fegelein and Himmler were in attendance as well. Josef Goebbels made a great
propaganda exploit out of the situation, which was meant to assist the foreign
recruiting effort. Gille would later be awarded the Diamonds, while Fegelein
would be shot on Hitler’s orders.
Q:
When did you first
arrive in Russia?
A:
We entered the
Ukraine beginning in October 1941, after finishing basic training and mountain
warfare school, although some of our troops had been diverted to the Demyansk
region under Olivier Thoring, a Knight’s Cross winner who was later killed.
They were assigned to 9th Army, then later joined us in the south the next year.
It was his detachment that captured Andrei Vlasov in July 1942, for your
information.
Q:
How did you escape
to Spain?
A:
This was an
interesting situation. After a crazy course through Germany, Belgium, and
Denmark, where I met with Himmler in Kiel for the last time, we ended up in
Oslo, Norway by ship, and we knew that this situation would not last after my
meeting with [Vidkun] Quisling. We refueled the aircraft and took off on our
flight. We ran out of fuel and crashed on a beach in Spain, and I have been
here ever since. My own government condemned me to death, but they have not
pursued those who murdered my family and killed in the name of their own
causes. Justice is determined by those in power, nothing else.
Q:
What was your final
rank?
A:
My rank was
Oberfuehrer, which is one rank above a full colonel and just below a brigadier
general, so there is no Allied equivalent. I was promoted to general in the
last week of the war, but I never [personally] received the promotion to
Brigadefuehrer.
Q:
How has your life
been since the war?
A:
I spend my time
writing about the war and meeting old friends, and now making new ones. I think
that people need to understand that there is always another side to a story. If
people in your country had suffered the loss of their families due to a
political party that was in conflict with your beliefs, then many of your
countrymen may find themselves on the other side. Your American Civil War is a
prime example.
Q:
What do you see
yourself doing for the rest of your life?
A:
Hopefully still
writing, as long as my mind is sharp and I can see; always reading books, and
wondering at the great changes that have taken place in my lifetime. The
collapse of Communism in Europe has proven that we were right; we just needed
validation, and now we have it. I think that what we may write is important,
but the history as it unfolds will prove who was right, and who was wrong. I
never believed in the purging of Jews and civilians in general, and that was
not my war. My war was to fight for my country, which would have been an
independent partner of Germany in a Communist free Europe. This is only now a
reality, but we fought for it fifty years ago all the same.
Q:
Do you feel that
Communism will eventually die in the rest of the world as well?
A: Yes, it will fall. Governments are the most intangible
structures made by man, they change shapes, and are altered by the forces of
time and nature. However, I am an optimist; I am hopeful that we as a species
will learn from our mistakes, and perhaps there will be hope for us all. But
then again, I could be wrong.
